Fandom shift

[author_by_night]

So there's a lot of talk these days about the "death of fandom," usually attributed to LJ sucking, Dreamwidth (which I personally think could replace LJ if it caught on more), other social media (tumblr primarily gets the blame, but twitter and Facebook as well), and so forth.

I think that fandom IS changing, and for those of us who were into it "back then", the changes are depressing. Of course, "back then" is totally relative to not only when you got into fandoms, but where.

For me, "back then" was the early 2000s. I started out at the AOL Harry Potter messageboards - good lord, what a wank storm. But an awesome wank storm. Around the same time I got into ecfans, one of the few Earth's Children websites and certainly the largest. The Harry Potter boards I went to tended to change, sometimes going in a circle, but I largely visited forums and websites. Around 2004 I got into LJ... however, LJ was really only for Harry Potter fandom and some of my lesser fandoms - with Earth's Children, it was always primarily that one site.

I've seen people on LJ who have only ever been on LJ say that LJ IS real fandom, though, because they never got into messageboards. At the same time, I have friends who used to go on usenet, so to them that's "old fandom." (Or so I assume?) Nobody's really right or wrong, it's just all relative.

But I think that the other problem is that the internet has changed drastically in that "everyone" is into it, and in that people use it a lot differently now - it's not a matter of mailing lists versus messageboards versus LJ, but the purpose itself.

Although I'm no social media scholar (and I'm skeptical of most people who say they are, because it's often like they did the equivalent of looking up a country on LonelyPlanet and writing a 500 page book about it), I think it's safe to say that the internet has become less interactive. One of the things that made messageboards fun was the fact that fans could talk to each other. Now the idea is that you generally send out ideas, rather than topics. The sharing element is still there, but it's not interactive sharing. There's no real discussion. And if that's why you loved fandom, that might suck.

Additionally, I think that fandom's been hit by a lack of "blockbusters" that really took off on the internet, or that seemed to collide fanbases. When I first got into the Harry Potter fandom, I also knew a lot about Buffy. Back then, I'd never seen Buffy.  I had no idea who the hell this Spike guy was or why everyone compared Remus to some Giles person and shipped them in some cases. But I heard about those characters all the time, and a lot of my friends were in both fandoms. The fandoms seemed to play off of each other. Then the Lord of the Rings movies came out, and suddenly not only were people comparing Willow to Hermione, they were comparing Gandalf to Dumbledore. I don't think we've really had any sort of intertwining that since. (Have we? I could be wrong, so someone please tell me if I have.) Meanwhile, the Harry Potter fandom has quieted down a lot  and seems to be primarily memes and ficfests these days, and I think it's the same with Buffy and LOTR fandom. I'm not really sure, though.

This isn't to say people aren't enjoying the same things - a lot of them are. But they're not necessarily crazy about the same things. And I think that makes a huge difference too - buzz feeds off of buzz. It seems to me everyone's now in their own pockets. Even though LJ does allow for discussion, I have to say, I hardly see any even in fan comms I've joined. Of course, LJ has also really complicated the way notes work, so that's part of the problem. (I'm honestly surprised DW hasn't kicked off more, as it IS more like old school LJ that was comment friendly.)

And all of this being said, do I really think it means fandom's dying? No. I think, like everything online, it's just that it's changing. I do miss the way people would interact and hope something comes along that's about interaction again, but I think it's still alive and kicking. It's just kicking different places.

ETA: Just to clarify, I'm not talking about the Harry Potter fandom specifically - it was/is my primary fandom so that's why I use it as my main example. I'm talking about fandom, period.

Comments

[13oct.livejournal.com]

I got into the HP fandom when the shit was flying with Cassandra Claire's Draco Trilogy. I think around the time the second one came out... so that must be around 2000 I think?

The nastiness was an unpleasant intro to fandom but hell I'm still here years later so it obviously didn't put me off too much huh? And yes, D/G is still my OTP. Even though I can't access the holy grail website here. It's banned for lord knows what reason.

You are absolutely right though, fandom has changed so much from what I first knew it. I'm on tons and tons of lj fandom pages - especially now that I've branched out into Mentalist and Avenger fan fic and they are all pretty active.

I do a lot of reading on aol3 and ff.net (shocking huh?!) as well as loads of fan forums as well.

LJ is sadly dying though. It's true and so sad at the same time. :( I'm here till the bitter end though.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

I remember the whole Cassandra Claire thing too; I mean, I actually remember the first few ff.n forum posts asking why she'd disappeared from the site. It actually killed my AOL inbox because I'd subscribed to the forums and I was getting 100 emails an hour or something crazy.

From what I've heard, fanfiction.net seems to be having a bit of a revival. Which is nice because I remember it actually being decent when I first started reading - bearing in mind of course that I was a teenager, and a lot of fics I thought were brilliant I've since re-read and been shocked at how... horrible they were. But I also think a lot of the good/halfway decent writers just formed their own fics.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

No, I'm happy not having the meta about who's better, Gandalf or Dumbledore?

I like the more evolved form now which is that we find two similar characters and instead making it into a debate, we seem to decide that they're both awesome and should be BFFs even though they are in completely separate fandoms,like Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne or Shelock Holmes and the Doctor. Then, people make gifs and fanfiction and it seems way more productive.

Fandom is a lot more complicated now though because of being spread out so much. I find myself lurking a lot more but then, I'm trying to be more active fandom-wise on twitter.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

No, I'm happy not having the meta about who's better, Gandalf or Dumbledore?

It's less about the arguments and more about the general way in which people were spilling into one another's fandoms. I agree sometimes there was some fighting, Buffy/Jossverse fans sometimes did the same thing, but it could also be amusing.

[sea_thoughts]

I think fandom's a lot more spread out now and it seems to be more about images/videos, which is why Tumblr is so popular. I'm surprised DW hasn't been a massive hit but maybe it's a slow grower.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

I just remembered that the way I really got into LJ was because Sugar Quill was down for some reason, so all of my SQ friends and I came here and added each other. Maybe the problem with DW is that there hasn't been that sort of mass exodus yet - people have just sort of been going on their lonesome and slowly adding other people from LJ and elsewhere.

[sea_thoughts]

I know a lot of us created DW journals during the DDOS attacks on LJ, when we had no idea if we could log on, let alone that it would come back. If LJ had stayed down, I think DW would definitely have received a boost but it came back. :S

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

OH. With your icon, I thought DW meant Doctor Who and I was trying to figure out how you could call it a slow grower for a good 30 seconds.

[sea_thoughts]

Oh my God, I'm sorry! Maybe I should have used the full name. *LOL*

[bemkah.livejournal.com]

I don't think fandom itself is dying - I think it may be changing from how fans used to interact with one another however. The Doctor Who fandom for example is definitely live and well.

I also don't think the internet has become less interactive - the whole point of Web 2.0 applications is that everything becomes MORE collaborative. Everything now is about generating content, becoming an author, adding to what was already there. Most fandoms now have their own wikis that anyone with a computer can ad to and edit. That forums aren't as big a thing anymore doesn't mean that everything is less interactive. Look at memes. Look at tumblr, facebook, twitter. Everyone has an opinion, and nowadays it seems like people express this opinion through videos on youtube, through memes on tumblr, through random posts on facebook, and through the creation and updating of wikis and their content.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

Well, but on the other hand those ways don't always give as much opportunity for true discussion, which is what a lot of people - myself included - miss. Tumblr is great for sharing stuff, for instance, but there's little discussion that comes of it. At the same time, I haven't seen a lot of discussion on LJ either - just, as you said, collaboration. Which has to have a place, that's the whole point of fanart and fanfiction, but at the same time there's no way to discuss writing Amy Pond in a fanfic or what Jayne Cobb's true motivations were. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about, you know?

[jo-blogs.livejournal.com]

I really agree with this. I do think SQ and the robust friendship groups it generated on LJ and offline was a pretty special case - not to say that people didn't make friends on other sites/in other fandoms - but SQ was a really amazing one for that. I think it's because a) there was a real insistence on being polite and positive in discussion (although that kind of fell away a bit at the end and people's individual agendas took over - a pretty common problem for "mature" online communities).

b) a lot of people on SQ who were writers saw themselves as being "serious" about their fan fiction and the SQ approach to discussion meant that they got a HUGE amount of really vital and interesting feedback from other writers and readers.

Added to that is your excellent point about the kinds of things people were interested in discussing - not only the writing threads but so much of the canon discussion on SQ about the books fed into people's fan fiction, and people just kept having amazing ideas for stories and writing them down. Again, there's a lot of amazing fan fiction still being written but the archives tend to be more multi-fandom perhaps? So to me there doesn't seem to be that same coherence that keeps people together, working on stuff and feeding off each other.

I recently wrote a fic for a show there's very little fic for - it's a teen show, and I think the fans are just a lot more active on tumblr (and maybe twitter). There isn't a single LJ community, for one thing. Loads of people have read it, according to the stats, but I've had hardly any reviews - which is fine, I wrote it for myself and am not as hungry for feedback as I was a few years ago. But it shows that the culture for discussion and giving feedback just isn't there in the same way.

Can I use this post for this 500 page book about social media I have coming out soon?

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

although that kind of fell away a bit at the end and people's individual agendas took over - a pretty common problem for "mature" online communities).


Yeah, and it takes a lot to steer people back in. The thing I love about one of the communities I still go to is that the same sort of thing happened, but we worked to reign people back in. However, it takes a lot of investment and the right people to do that, and sometimes that doesn't happen - especially if the admins or mods have moved on, which is often the case. A lot of the mods/admins at the community I mentioned are middle aged or older - this IS their thing now. It can be a different story when the admins/mods were in their teens or twenties when they started and have different lives towards the end. Not to mention that this board is a little less dependent on the "fan" in "fandom" than SQ was. There's a LOT of meta - in fact, really it's 80% meta. But the spirit of the fandom is still there, if that makes sense?


Can I use this post for this 500 page book about social media I have coming out soon?

Suddenly I feel bad about that comment - but you know you're not who I meant, right? :) I meant people who dissect internet culture they really know nothing about like we're weird alien specimen, complete with inaccurate facts and/or the most outlandish examples. Anyway, because I know yours won't be like that, I'd be more than happy to let you use it! :)

[jo-blogs.livejournal.com]

Don't feel bad! I didn't mean to make you feel bad, I was being silly and I did know what you meant. My research isn't about social media anyway, it's about creative writing.

Your other community sounds great - I'm quite envious! That's awesome you've been able to hold it together and keep things going.

Not to mention that this board is a little less dependent on the "fan" in "fandom" than SQ was.

Yeah, it made sense for SQ to close when it did, but I still find it sad. The fandom stuff was great and fun while it lasted, but there was so much more to the site that could have gone on if there'd been a way to continue it - discussion of other books and all the writing stuff.

[bemkah.livejournal.com]

I think those things DO still exist, they're just in a different format. Someone might make a video posted on YouTube entitled 'Jayne Cobb's Motivation' and use a series of clips from Firefly to prove their point, or create an animation or picspam. Someone else might write a wiki article on Amy Pond and her appearance in fanfic, her pairings, which stories and authors are most popular etc. You do still get comments to all of these things as well, which the original poster can respond to. I do get the sadness behind the slow death of forums though. One of my favourite sites is a Sirius Black forum site and it has been slowly dwindling since the release of the final HP movie.

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

People say that Tumblr limits discussion, but I do see that kind of thing there. Not a ton, because I don't follow talky people on it and you have to look for it/stimulate it, but you can find it. OUAT gets quite a lot.

Which is I think more to the point - HP encouraged a ton of spec and theorizing and universe-meta, but most canons just don't. Doctor Who does, but imo the intense ALL ABOUT -ISM the more social media-meta side of the fandom has going on is off-putting to people who want to delve into character arcs and motivations (since "no, you're wrong, it just happened because the writer sucks" is always a potential answer).

[dotty.livejournal.com]

Just skimmed this because I reeeeeally need to go to bed like, 10 min ago, but I just had to say regarding intertwining fandoms that this actually still definitely do exists, but seems to be more common with genre shows and particularly young adult-aimed such. I have seen many an article comparing Elena/Bella/Sookie/Buffy/Katniss etc, for example, plus there's the natural comparison within different versions of the same fandom (Sherlock being the most obvious one)... It's around, is my point, but maybe you're right in that it doesn't bounce between the fandom as much, like maybe it's mostly people on the outside of fandoms doing the comparing.
I have more thoughts on this, but: BED! Will return tomorrow!

[victorialupin.livejournal.com]

The sharing element is still there, but it's not interactive sharing. There's no real discussion.

I would say there are still a lot of real attempts at discussion, but newer sites are not really set-up in a way that easily enables this discussion. I actually see A LOT of fandom discussion on tumblr, but for me personally it's not worth using in that manner because A) you're not replying to people the way you would in a forum, so it's a lot more frustrating to have to reblog a post every time you want to add a comment, and B) people in a variety of different fandoms might be following you, so generally I'm a lot more wary of reblogging endless responses to, for instance, and episode of Parks & Recreation because I realize not everyone who follows me is interested in P&R and they're going to have to scroll through all that.

There are also a lot more people who mix their social networking with fandom and IRL friends; people I know on LJ and people I know IRL follow me on tumblr, and while my twitter is fandom-only I think a lot of people use it for both purposes. Even though my friends know I'm in some fandoms, I'd be a lot more hesitant to post a billion thoughts about Doctor Who or something if I had IRL friends looking at it just because I know most of them wouldn't be interested.

In that sense, I really do still like Livejournal; I can use my journal for general stuff, and the occasional fandom post (not that I really make many journal entries anymore anyway), but if I want to talk about something in more depth I can go into community for that topic and not worry about spamming my friends' list.

[lukecanwaltz88.livejournal.com]

You have an interesting argument... I will say, though, in reference to your point about comparisons of characters... I've known a lot about characters of other shows before I watch them, because of the internet and discussions and comparisons. I think that factor still exists. I can name all of the Doctor's companions since 2005, for example, but I've just finished season 1 and I'm barely into season 2, and there's only been one companion I've met. I absorb a lot about other shows and fandoms through exposure on the internet.

But like other people have said, a lot of the sites that still exist don't promote real discussion. I think a lot of it is partly because on LJ, I originally made friends through fandom, and that was the gateway to friendship outside of fandom. And I frequently have discussions of fandom outside of LJ, too, whether it's via a chat, or in 3D (example: my friends and I were discussing Buffy and Angel in depth tonight, and how the characters that spanned both shows developed and changed).

I think I may start up my Top 100 TV episodes thing again. That'd be a fun vehicle for discussion. I love discussion and all that stuff, and I think sometimes, I don't have a spot to do it. I mean, obviously I have LJ, but LJ is also where I like to read about my friends' lives, too.

[chthonya]

My introduction to fandom was on the HP4GU board - which didn't feel very interactive because there was so much traffic that posts tended to get lost in it all - and then on the Fiction Alley message boards. I started here in 2004, and really missed the writing discussions on FA, and also that everyone (everyone on FA, that is, but that was a fair range of folk) was in the same place. I found so many interesting fics through people's signatures, whereas the LJ fandom felt much more fragmented into ships and genre interests. But I did like the way people could post on LJ about RL and could get to know each other in a more rounded way.

It's inevitable that things would get quieter in HP-land after canon closed. I think a lot of the excitement stemmed from speculation about what would happen next - many of the questions about motivation, for example, have been answered by JKR. I feel fandoms are colliding more than they were; it's just different fandoms - Sherlock, Hunger Games, Merlin... Buffy was a scarily long time ago now.

I agree with your point about middle-aged fans not changing so much. A lot of people who were around ten years ago were in their teens and early 20s - some have stuck around and for others that was just something they were into at that stage of their lives. Those of us whose life patterns were more settled have less impetus to move on.

Another difference is that the younger generation seem less guarded about privacy issues - for me, linking twitter, FB, LJ flickr etc is a bug, not a feature. But back then writing slash, let alone porn, was viewed askance by many people so perhaps there was more to hide.

I think the newer platforms aren't designed so well for interactivity - perhaps fairer to say that they're not designed for the same form of interactive activities as we have here. I find Facebook incredibly frustrating in that regard but I think I'll have to bite the bullet and get to grips with it one of these days! And too, there seems to be a growing trend of fandoms for fanworks (Starkid and the like), which divides fans more into producers and consumers than in a community when it felt like we were all writers. Perhaps really what's happened is that the new forms of social media have enabled more people to get access and have their say, even if that say is 'just' commenting on others' creativity. Access to internet was less widespread in 2004 so perhaps the online fandom then was drawing from a different pool of people?