Education Poll

[author_by_night]

Just a poll based on an article I saw a while ago, where schools were banning kids from sending invitations in class, and another one where kids were banned from playing tag. It made me think.

There is no "right answer". I will give my opinion, but later. And if you think you know my opinion, don't base your answer on that.

Please comment! :)

On an OT note, fish update: I renamed her "Luna." :)


[Poll #789453]

Comments

[beatriceeagle.livejournal.com]

Mrs. Gordon should do the groups herself, but in making groups, she should take things like rivalries into consideration. I had a history teacher who persisted in grouping me with a boy he knew very well I couldn't get along with. Perhaps not the best idea.

Mr. Lucas should provide an alternative that the student can choose.

Schools shouldn't have an organized prayer time, but they should be allowed to have school-recognized, student-run prayer groups that don't happen during school hours.

Schools need to work pretty damn hard against bullying, especially if it's right under their nose. My school's anti-bully program was useless and a waste of time.

[auvergne.livejournal.com]

If you mean Jean-Jacques Rousseau, the Enlightenment philosopher, it's spelt "Rousseau", not "Rosseau". Also, I think Voltaire said that...

[daniellafromage.livejournal.com]

Amanda: I think that the kids who aren't invited to her party need to suck it up. There's absolutely no reason why she should have to invite people she doesn't like to an extracurricular event, such as a party. At the same time, handing out invitations at school is convenient and less expensive than posting them all.

Mrs. Gordon: I do think that learning group skills are important and should be taught throughout school, so I don't think that she should give them up entirely. At the same time, I think she should alternate between setting group and solo assignments.

Mr. Lucas: I nearly said that the students should have to read the book. I changed my mind because I've been in school situations where I was ethically opposed to what was going on and was offered an alternative instead - and while I don't agree with the view of HP being wicked, I think it would be kind of a double standard for me to force someone to read it if they really didn't want to. So I'd strongly encourage everyone to read it if they wanted to pass, and anyone who didn't want to could outline why either in person or in a short essay before giving them a new assignment.

Religion in schools: I went to a school with morning religious assemblies, which I really enjoyed, even before I became Christian. I went to a private faith school, however, so that was only really to be expected - and we had alternative Jewish and Hindu/Jain assemblies for the Jewish/Hindu girls who wanted them. I guess I think that all religions/beliefs should be focused on at some point in school, just in order to give students some idea about people of other beliefs (in RE I remember studying Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism and - in a round about way - atheism).

Sorry for teh babble. Hope I made some sense. D:

[pennswoods.livejournal.com]

Mr. Dennis is clearly being lazy. Teachers can easily resort and reorgnize students into teams so that no one particular students gets left out: Have kids line up according to birthdate and split them down the middle, have children count off by twos, sort children alphabetically (by last name or by first name) and split them down the middle, etc.

Regarding Mrs. Gordon - kids do need to learn to suck it up and work together. She, like Mr. Dennis, can group students herself any number of ways. This means sometimes kids will get to work with their friends and sometimes they won't.

[lstinhpfdm.livejournal.com]

Birthday Party -- She should be allowed to invite whomever she wants. But if she doesn't invite the whole class, it is inappropriate to distribute them in class/school.

Religion -- No worshiping, unless it's a religious school. But a healthy discusion of world religions, their history and cultural implications is critical for a good understanding of world history and politics. We can't just pretend religion doesn't exist.

[lady-sarai.livejournal.com]

Oooo, boy. You hit on a lot of sticking points for me! ;) I've just graduated with an education degree and am looking for a teaching job.

The invitations. It's sticky, but I think if the student could hand out the invitations in a subtle way (not easy for small children, granted), or if the teacher could impose a "not in the classroom" kind of rule, that could work (or at least it would allow the teacher to tell the other parents that s/he did something).

The gym teacher: OMG, no. >_< Don't let them pick teams. EVER. Or, if you do, have a different child every class. Rotate that responsibility. Best yet, MAKE THE TEAMS YOURSELF. In a way other than "boys vs girls" or counting off. (Kids figure the counting thing out mighty quick!) As a teacher, you can SO tell who should and should not be on the same team--if only for YOUR sanity! After a few weeks, make the teams yourself. Not that tough, we do it at summer camp every day, just by looking at the kids and saying "okay, he's on this team, so she's on that team."

The group work: First, HORRIBLE reason to assign group work. Or anything. Group work has its advantages, which I never saw in school but now I admit to understanding. But, don't let them choose their own groups, or only let that happen as a reward. Again, the teacher should choose. Or, what I did in student teaching was ask the students to make lists of other kids they wanted in their group, including friends and one person they had not worked with before but would like to. This was a lot of work for me, but the groups turned out FANTASTIC in the end--I made sure everyone had at least one person they asked for in their group. And the whole process was entirely confidential, unless they blabbed to each other at lunch.

Erm, Harry Potter... I would probably send a letter home first with a controversial book like this and ask parents with questions or concerns to schedule a meeting or to call me to discuss them. Then we'd figure out if they'd be willing to let the child read the book or if an alternate should be assigned.

And now, it's to bed with me. ;)

[miss-daizy.livejournal.com]

Party invitations should only be given out in class if the entire class is invited. Otherwise, it's not a classroom issue and should not distract from classroom time. Teachers should not have to deal with the emotional fall out, when this situation can easily be avoided. Also, it's just polite. (This is the policy at the school my girls go to and it works well.)

I suppose Mr. Lucas could have an alternate book of equal length chosen and complexity chosen for the religious parents, although I'm actually of the opinion that you shouldn't send your children to public school unless your willing to accept what public school is offering. (I realize this doesn't consider financial issues, etc., isn't always practical and is never going to be the case, but it's my gut response. And the reason I don't send my daughters to public school ~ I don't like what's on offer there.)

Mr. Cole should either pick the teams himself or shut up. Highlighting Dennis's situation with his comments about "including everyone" doesn't help.

Religion should not be present in public schools, although no one should be prevented from praying should they care to and it doesn't interfere with learning time.

I never much cared about Student Office, so I really don't have an opinion on that.

Mrs. Gordon should arrange the groups when assigning group projects, but should also alternate group projects with individual assignments, allowing those students who work better alone as much of a chance to enjoy learning and to do well on the assignments as those who work best in groups.

A no tolerance policy on bullying should be very important for everyone involved in the school. I don't think being or feeling excluded is the province of the school, though. It's asking too much of the teachers and administrators. However, in general, stressing consideration and kindness just makes sense.

Schools are for learning, which can't happen well if they are also about all these other issues. That doesn't mean ignoring them entirely, but they should be placed in context and priorities should clearly be set to favor actual teaching activites. The schools were I live are dreadful and so much time and resources and energy is wasted on stupid shit ~ it makes me crazy. My close friend was a teacher and ended up leaving to teach in Catholic school. She was so tired of not being allowed to be actually teach in her classrom because there were so many other things that were considered more important by the administrators.

I'm guessing that some of my opinions aren't popular and will meet with disagreement. If so, I do like hearing another point of view and am alway open to reconsidering things when presented with information I haven't considered closely.

[likeafox.livejournal.com]

1. depends on how the invites are passed out. I've certainly given invitations to friends during school before, but I always did it by going person to person and having a fairly private conversation with them. If the kid is gathering all her friends together, or (though I'm not sure why this would be allowed) doing it in front of the whole class, I think the teacher should step in and say wait until after class or after school.

2. I don't see a problem with occasionally (like, a few times a month) picking teams for the heck of it, but if it's a daily thing then someone is going to consistantly be picked last and that is really not fun. I'd say the teacher should have precreated teams often enough that being picked last is a rare enough occurance that it isn't something anyone starts to dread.

3. I hate group projects. You always end up doing all the work. *narrows eyes* :P But honestly, there really isn't a good way to go about making groups for group projects in school, both because people are going to pick friends over people who would be conductive to learning, and because it sucks being the odd one out who has to work with people they don't like/can't stand. I'd say either do it randomly or rarely.

4. Go ahead with the assignment (though it's probably a good idea to keep parents informed on what's going on in class, whether you think it could be controversial or not) and wait and see if there are any issues. If a parent comes to you, then ask for an explanation as to why they don't approve, and then provide an alternative assignment, preferably one that wouldn't be conspicuous, so the student doesn't get made fun of or anything.

[arayuldaiel.livejournal.com]

Heh, I'm not actually sixteen going on seventeen, but yay Sound of Music!

Re: Amanda. It really depends. Like, if Amanda announced to the class, "Okay guys! I'm having a REALLY COOL birthday party! It's going to be great! But only these people can come, because they're the only ones that are good enough." Then... yeah, that's a problem. But if she just quietly passed out invitations at recess, I don't think there's anyhthing to get worked up about.

[victorialupin.livejournal.com]

Amanda: I voted that it depended on the circumstances. Honestly, I think she should be allowed to invite whomever she wants to her party and she should be allowed to do so during class. The only way I could see the behaviour as inappropriate would be if Miss Henderson had gotten the class' attention to announce that Amanda was handing out invitations, or if she saw a child being picked on for having been excluded and ignored the bullying. Ultimately, Amanda should be allowed to give out the invitations in class. Anyway, if it she wasn't, the kids who weren't invited would find out regardless and still be upset.

Dennis: The teacher is wrong. It's alright for students to pick teams occasionally, but every other day is excessive, especially if he knows one student will constantly be excluded.

Group work: This is always difficult. I think it's a bit unfair to always assign the groups, but likewise it's not fair to always assign group. She should try to compromise by sometimes creating the groups herself, and other times letting the students decide.

Religion: I identified with several of these answers. I do think there needs to be a private moment for worship for those who want it, but it shouldn't interfere with regular class time; the best method I've seen is to have organized prayer in specific classrooms for those who want it, so the other students may continue working. As for religion in the actual school system, it shouldn't be there at all. Schools should not support any sort of religious ideal or base their teachings on religion.

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

My answers are all based on a small school where all of the kids know each other, say, 95 to a class. I can't even imagine not knowing all of my classmates. But that also makes my answers not applicable to most schools, I think.

Gym class: There is no right answer. The coach is not changing anything by saying "let's include everyone", and not doing anything also sucks. I used to be picked last - last last, not by the end - every time, even after the girl with the long fingernails who couldn't throw the ball. I wasn't especially bad at sports, I was actually good as long as I didn't get yelled at, which would throw me off completely. The only thing that can be done is to make Dennis is captain, which would probably give him much more exposure than he wants (and is obviously just done so he can't be picked last).

Invitations: If the kid is just handing them out quietly at recess or lunch, then there is no problem. If she is deliberately going up to groups and giving them to some but not others just to make the others feel bad or is disrupting class, then there is a problem. The whole of school is a popularity contest, everyone knows that from first grade on, and probably most if not all of the scorned never expected an invitation. If one did expect one and didn't get it, that's a matter for her to discuss with her little girlfriends when Amanda is not present.

Groups: Groups suck. I always hated doing groups because then I'd end up doing all of the work. I think that teachers should always make up the groups while bearing in mind who works well with whom and who get in fights. Because I say so.

Harry Potter: I think the likelihood of a parent complaining is very low, so he shouldn't worry about it unless it comes up. One of my best friends is very, very religious (very, very, very) and she loves HP (just don't let's get on the subject of same-sex marriage or abortion, thnx), so I don't think dislike of HP goes hand in hand with strong religion.

Religion: I think students should be free to pray silently if they wish, but the faculty should never stimulate religious things. You know. Moments of silence, hardly anyone actually thinks about what they're supposed to. No prayer at graduation. But no-one should be stopped from prayer, as long as it's not disruptive.

Student government: I hate the Disney channel movies where the heroine wants to run for president to fix injustices or whatever. Wtf? Everyone knew it was a popularity contest. The same girl was president all through HS until senior year - our nerd candidate won because the football king ran against her. He was the only one of our ticket that won, though.

Bullying: There is nothing they can do about exclusion, I think. Attempts to fix that will make it worse. I don't think most excluded kids really mind, anyway - we just group with other excluded kids, although I was also kinda excluded by them, but that was my fault. Bullying, however, should be stamped upon violently.

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I just realized that the coach could share Gordon's strategy and make the teams himself. Silly me. :)

[katieowrites.livejournal.com]

Amanda: a kid should be able to invite who she wants to to her birthday party, though most parents I know try to make sure everyone is included. Why Mrs. Henderson would allow this to go on during class time, I don't know--but not because of whatever damage it would do to the other students, but because class time is for being in class. If there's allotted free time or recess or whatever, sure, let Amanda do her thing. She'll probably bring cupcakes for everyone, anyway.

Mr. Cole should make a practice of picking teams himself or having kids count off. A lot of times in gym class, our teams would rotate halfway through the period. But occasionally letting kids pick teams is normal and, I think, appropriate.

In both of these situations, in my eyes, the onus is on the kid's parents to emphasize that this sort of thing is not a big deal. Maybe Dennis is nearsighted and can't hit a beach ball with a baseball bat, but runs like hell and will kick ass on the track team once he hits high school. Maybe he'll be hilarious and the kid everyone likes to be in class with. If Amanda doesn't invite you to her party, well, okay, you didn't like Amanda that much anyway, and Chuck E. Cheese is boring. When you have a small child that falls down, they tend to make as big a deal of it as you do. If you kiss it better and end it there, the kid generally will, too. If you fuss and flip out, so will the kid. The same is true once they start to get older.

If Mrs. Gordon is letting children pick their own groups for any project larger than two people, she is a nut.

If a parent raises an issue about Harry Potter, the teacher should certainly address it, but until that point, just run with it.

If people want to pray in schools, they should be able to. If they don't want to, they shouldn't. But I don't have a problem with a school setting aside a moment of reflection for people to do with as they please--pray, meditate, cram for a Spanish quiz, whatever.

Our student government certainly did things, but no one really cared about who won or lost, so I don't see that as being that big a deal.

As far as bullying, of course the schools need to be involved, but I said 'only in terms of common sense.' By that, I mean that everyone needs to realize that all kids will not get along, all kids will not like each other, and that's that. If things get physical or cruel, that's one thing. But if a kid is running to the principal's office every other day saying, "Johnny called me a jerk!", well, that kid needs to learn to let things go.

I'm a pretty tough customer, which comes with distance, I think. But anyone I know now that holds a grudge going back to high school or before comes off as someone that just can't let things go. People grow up and change. Does it make it okay to treat someone cruelly over and over? Absolutely, certainly, no. But everyone at some point is going to be called a bitch or an asshole or be made fun of--it's the great equalizer in growing up. Everyone's goofy-looking and awkward in middle school, and no one has fond memories of it. That's just how it is.

[ehnel.livejournal.com]

Amanda should either do an all girl's party or invite much less than half of the class. Otherwise, people will feel excluded.

Poor Dennis, how I identify him. What he doesn't realise though, is that even if Mr Cole splits people into teams, he will still be picked last. At least, if Mr Cole is anything like my old gym teacher. In all my twelve years of school, gym was the only class I ever skived. That says a] a lot about me and b] a lot about how much I hated gym.

School is about education, thus censorship of anything, including HP, is utter stupidity.

If someone wants to pray at school, as long as it's not during lessons I think they should be allowed to. I'm a bit wavery on this one, but I think that's mostly because I'm not religious myself and can't understand why on earth someone would want to pray during school. But yeah. Rights and freedom and all that. Yes, they should be allowed.

[newyork-noodles.livejournal.com]

Amanda: that's the most ridcolous thing I have ever heard. Do these parents honestly think they're doing their kids a favour by getting involved with their social lives in fourth grade? Not everyone's friends with everyone in a class, and I'm sure the kids know this as well as a Amanda does.

Mrs Gordon: I think she should be firm. Working with people is one of the ecore skills you learn in school...I'm not saying it's right for the kid to be excluded, but getting a teacher involved isn't going to makeit better. I know it sounds tough, and I kind of want to make clear that I'm not making light of bullying, but I was the kid without a group for some time- until I learned that I had to go up to people and say "Can I work withyou guys?" or "Shall we team up, I was thinking XYZ". It was oneof the most important lessons I learned in Middle School. I don't like it when teachers put together groups- sometimes it can be great, if they really know their students and know which students would work well together...but the majority will eitherend up sticking weak and strong students together, hoping they'll help each otherout, but that NEVER happens and the brainy kid ends up doing all the work.

Mr Lucas: Public school isn't the outpost of parent's beliefs, and Harry Potter isn't offensive. If it was, I dunno, a book that was inappropriate for the age group or something, I'd say fine, let them do something else. But there's NOTHING wrong with HP, and any sane human being will agree with you.

Religion: I think there should be some form of religious education in class- meaning a mandatory class where students learn about ALL religions, their beliefs, rituals and culture, and what they all have in common. You can only respect something you're educated about, and all kinds of religious fundamentalism can only be battled be eradicating the stereotypes and educating people about what this religion is really about.

Student Office.....should pay attention to student's need, as opposed to organizing Pep Rallies and Hamburger sales. If a Student Gov. is strong and ready to fight with the Administration over the stuff that really matters, it can be effective as hell. If not, it's just something for polisci nerds to spend their time with.

This was a really interesting poll.Which articles inspired it??

[ex-jo-blogs.livejournal.com]

Really interesting poll.

Amanda's party - word to Miss Daisy's comment.

Picking teams - of course he's making things worse. But then, life is shit for Dennis in practically every way and team sports will exacerbate his situation. *hugs Dennis*. Yeah, I was Dennis ;) Overall, if Mr Whatsisface makes a decent job of picking the teams himself, everybody wins. It might be a bit of extra work for him - but he's a gym teacher, it's not like he has a ton of marking to do.

Group work - make the groups yourself and mix them up as often as possible so everyone gets a chance to work with everyone else and make it part of what the assignment is assessed on, how well you work in your group. Be very clear about assigning different roles within groups and also make sure that the same girl with the neat handwriting doesn't end up as 'secretary' every time, even if she wants to. Friendship groups CAN work, if the teacher knows the group very well and doesn't just use them as a lazy default because he / she can't be bothered to structure them properly. I also think newyork_noodles has a point about learning social skills to be able to ask and get what you want. But not all children CAN acquire these skills themselves and need a lot more support.

If I were Mr Lucas, my personal approach would be to try to defend my choice to the death. If it totally failed, I would probably find a safe place for the excluded students to work and provide them with an alternative reading assignment, possibly The Crucible *evil grin*

Religion - tricky one to answer as I know nothing about the public school system in the US. In Britain my feeling is that education should be provided about religion in the broadest sense, that there is no harm in a 'moment of peace' but that generally public schooling should be secular as far as possible.

Student office - don't know what the arguments against it are, so again a hard one to answer. Students should be allowed to go for it if they want to, and students who object to it should be allowed to protest.

Last question - I see this as a management issue that needs to be lead from the top. Individual teachers who try to stop bullying or indeed enforce any kind of discipline get nowhere unless they are supported by a strong school ethos, a strong head and senior management team. If there is a clear policy and it is consistently enforced and all the students know about it and feel included in supporting an anti-bullying ethos, then that's the best chance of stamping out all but isolated and brief cases of bullying.

[arieskalexander.livejournal.com]

Okay, i might be an Aussie, but I do have a lot of experience in many of these things - They've happened to me.

In reverse order -

Student office. i suppose it's almost the same as the Student Representative Council in that all the students of a grade/class elect a leader, correct? If so, know that I, as a book worm-come-self-embarasser, have been trying for a while to get onto the council - no success. It is a popularity poll, contrary to common belief.

Religion. This will probably cause a lot of ... I wouldn't say hatred, but it might be close ... towards me, but I don't believe religion should be in schools. That's thrusting your beliefs on others. I spent all of my young life trying not to feel sick in the Catholic sessions I was forced to attend, despite having a very rare religion - the Ancient Ways.
Not an official religion, but listening to others, as I am sure all of you do if faced with say, a muslim or a jew if you aren't Islamic or jewish, makes you feel frustrated they don't believe what you do.
Well, forcing me to listen to Catholic... tradition... makes me feel sick, as does stepping inside a church.
back to my point, thrusting your beliefs on others is almost illegal here - religious descrimination.

Harry Potter. Hey, we have to study far outdated things like Shakespeare and Lord of the Flies, why not actually bring in something the kids will enjoy? Wait, I remember. The Pope doesn't like it!

Group Work. I am the little kid that can never find a group and ends up working by themselves. thus, I am wonderfully independant. Or I was, until I let myself go. Now I am part of a group, but because of my age, am not allowed out to do anything.
I was mercilessly bullied and exiled since I started school, and have thus prevailed independantly for all of my primrary and secondary schooling life.
It sucks, but is terribly helpful at the same time.

Invites. As soon as I saw this, I thought, What the...? If the kid doesn't like the other 10, sucked in to them. If they feel left out, maybe they should try being nicer or inviting the original kid.
But, if there is only a few allowed, then first come, first serve, I say. Pttht to those who miss out. life's full of diappointments and being left out. they'll get over it.

PE issue. Make Dennis pick a team. that'll fix them quick smart. Any fights or tantrums, and the teacher can whack em over the head and tell them to get into line.

My views, anyway.

[purple-ladybug1.livejournal.com]

Fun poll, and I've enjoyed reading the discussion.

Amanda should quietly hand out the invitations and not make a big deal of it. As long as she's respectful, the other parents can't complain. I remember elementary school. I didn't get invited to every party, and my parties had no more than 10 guests. It's expensive to go over that!

The gym coach should mix it up. Make up teams some days and have the kids pick other days. Also, go down the attendance roll so that everyone in the class has a chance to be captain.

Reading Harry Potter... My 10th grade English Honors class read The Catcher in the Rye. Interesting book, but with horrible, offensive language. My teacher gave us an alternate book and requested a note from a parent who wanted the student to read A Raisin in the Sun instead. Only one of my friends had to read the alternate book. Seemed like a good system.

I've always had a love/hate relationship with groups. Before being in high school and being able to be in advanced classes, I hated groups that teachers assigned. The "formula" was one smart achiever (me), two average students, and a slacker. I did all the work. Anytime I've picked a group, I've had no problem. But I am smart, I am a hard worker, and I am very creative. So I usually hurt a few feelings by not having people in my group. In high school, my history teacher usually assigned us groups or partners. She mixed it up, and after she had a feel for our intelligence and work ethic, she partnered us with compatible workers. She also didn't assign group grades. She based your grade on your work. So near the beginning, when I did 3/4 of a project, I got an A and my partner got a B. In an English class, my teacher divided us into groups for "book club" and outlined job duties. Each of us had to do each job once. I think all teachers should alternate assigning groups and letting students pick, and working by oneself should always be an option.

Kids should be able to pray to themselves or quietly with friends. (In 7th grade, my friends and I always held hands and prayed before lunch. It extended to include about nine of us from the original five). Also, a moment of silence is perfectly reasonable. It's generic and unoffensive.

SGA is a popularity contest, no doubt. I never won any election by the student body. I only won elections within clubs, like NHS and Interact, where students actually knew me and knew my qualifications. All our class presidents were popular. All the officers were good-looking and popular. Bribery played a part too. "Be a Smartie, Vote for Cindy!" "Don't be a Dum-Dum, Vote for C.K.!" "Stick with a Winner, Vote for Allison" Handing out Smarties, Dum-Dums, or gum got votes. The speeches didn't.

Common sense against bullying. There are honest issues with it, but there are also students who just need to suck it up.

[jan-aq.livejournal.com]

While these problems do exist, a really good teacher who knows how to handle it can influence such things as team picking, bullying and exclusion in school. I went to a really good school and I remember noting how the teachers either tricked or got around such things and everything worked out for the better in the middle school and high school years. Before that the simple things have to be used cause the children need a base of how the world works.