Fanfiction and Feedback

[author_by_night]

In the past year or so, I've seen a lot of debating with regards to criticism in fanfic reviews. There's many arguments, some that say any criticism is bad, others saying criticism is necessary and fic writers should get over themselves. I guess fandom's changed since I first got into it, or maybe it's just that the main fandom I was in (Harry Potter) worked differently.*  While there was certainly a lot of divide in terms of how people reviewed, I found most people came to a happy medium. Conversely, in another fandom I'm in that's so small it is basically just one website, constructive criticism at all is... rare. People there seem to post for fun, and when I have been a bit "honest" it hasn't gone over well. My argument is that even if you don't want to be a professional writer, if you take part in any sort of activity, people might mention the execution. If you have a baseball bat on a field, people may correct your mistakes. So you may have to deal with the fact that people might say what you didn't want to hear.

*ETA: Noting that HP fandom was/is(?) huge, so that also probably depended on where I was posting my fanfic.

Having said that, there's communities that are more serious than others, and there's also reviews that are more diplomatic than others. One problem, I think, is that sometimes reviews intended to be helpful come across as condescending. For instance:

You need to learn how to structure your sentences; you can't have two people talking in one line. Below is an example of how to write two different speakers....

Full disclosure, I left a review that was more or less something to that effect once. I meant well; I really wanted to help the person and was surprised when she got upset. The thing is,  though, she didn't ask for a beta reader, and I also put her in an awkward situation by pointing out she had no idea what she was doing. Had I not been trying to be nice,  I might have been nicer. Seriously. Even my beta readers just fixed my mistakes as opposed to typing out an English 101 lecture. I got the message.

There's also reviews where people get angry with the writer. For instance:

This fic PISSED ME OFF. Have you even READ the books? I seriously doubt it. You ruined my favorite characters. I HATE THIS FANFIC WITH A BURNING PASSION. I ALSO HATE YOU.

Okay, I don't like bad fanfics either, but calm down. A twelve year old's Mary Sue shouldn't make you so angry. A forty year old's Mary Sue shouldn't make you so angry. Instead of yelling at someone who really didn't do anything wrong other than not writing very well, press the back button and comment when you've calmed down.

Some reviews also seem to be about the reviewer's personal tastes. For example:

Ugh, another Mal/Simon fic. Simon would never have sex with Mal. Ever.

I'm not a huge shipper myself, but that's why I know I'm not going to like it. I also know many people do, so I let them be.That said, it IS fair to comment on how a pairing is written. That's different from trying to start a mini ship war in a review thread.

On a similar note are Mary Sues/OCs.  On one hand, there's nothing wrong with mentioning that an OC is a bit too perfect for words.Although I think the whole Mary Sue backlash is a little silly, there are a lot of Goldenfeather Sparkly Rainbow Marigolds. It goes without saying that they're probably balatant Sues.  But some reviews seem to be based around the idea that OCs shouldn't exist at all, whch isn't fair either. OCs are very hit or miss, and a lot of people don't like them at all, which is fine. But then you probably don't want to read a fanfic with a significant OC or several OCs.

And then there's reviews where people yell at the author for not writing.

YOU HAVEN'T UPDATED IN FIVE DAYS! I HATE YOU!

That's not exactly encouraging. Also, when you consider that most novels take forever to be written, is it really any surprise that a WIP does? It's also not the best way to make the author feel loved.I think many nasty reviews are left because of a herd mentality, especially ones like the last two. This is true of flame wars in general, really. And I'd be lying if I said I haven't fallen into that trap myself. The thing is, just because other people are doing it doesn't mean it's a good idea. And really... insulting people on the internet's only fun until you realize for all you know, it's your sister in-law you've been screaming at.

You also have to keep in mind the kind of community you're in - whether you're a writer or reviewer. Some communities are very focused on helping writers improve; others are really more about having fun. Many seem to be a mix. Know what you're getting into.

One final note... if you're considering a career in writing or even taking writing classes, joining a writing group for fun, realize this - writers aren't known for being gentle about our art. Even the nice ones can be smug, pompous and/or condescending. You'll get burned somewhere along the line, and probably many times after that. Writing groups can get nasty, writing classes can get nasty, publishers, editors and directors are notorious for making you rewrite everything from scratch.  I'm pretty good about receiving feedback and even I've left classes almost in tears. And even if you don't want to write professionally, that's still the kind of world, the kind of people, you're interacting with.

Obviously these are just my two cents - feel free to pick this entry apart. ;)

Comments

[annissamazing]

It can be complicated because there are so many people in fandom with so many different motivations. Some people just want to have a good time. Others want to learn. Still others just want to make people feel bad.

I don't give concrit. Ever. This is mostly because I read fic for fun and if something in a fic bothers me (even a little), I backbutton. But if I were to give concrit, it would only be on fics where the author has specifically requested it.

When I write fanfic, I don't mind concrit. On my fic journal I even say it's ok to leave concrit, but if you're mean to me, I'll cry. It's silly, but I figure blunt honesty is probably the best policy there.

I *always* use a beta reader, and it's her opinions that I worry about the most, because when I send my fic off, it is with the explicit directions to rip the fic apart. I want her to be brutal. Not only do I want my grammar and punctuation checked, I also want plot points that are confusing and word placement and usage that causes mental stuttering pointed out. I will even take advice on how to make the plot better and/or more interesting even if it takes a massive rewrite. I want every single tiny problem mentioned without exception or fear of my feelings being hurt. Because if my beta doesn't point them out to me while I can still change them, some stranger will point them out to me when I can't.

[thecowboycliche.livejournal.com]

Here's the problem with constructive crit: most people have no idea how to do it. They think they're being constructive but they're really being insulting. These are the smug people. You should always start with talking about what's positive about the piece of writing before critiquing it. Instead people just outright bash or insult people, which helps no one. And I'm with you. If I don't like something I'm reading I either a) stop reading it or b) don't leave a rude comment. People just don't seem to understand "if you don't have anything nice to say".

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I never post anything until a beta reader has read it. I know some people don't like them, but my view is that even the best writers in the world had editors, and some could've still used better ones.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

I always try and leave a positive with the negative, too. Of course it depends on what's wrong with the fic - if the whole thing is just bad, I generally press the back button unless I can think of a way to criticize it completely without being hurtful.

[timeofnoreply.livejournal.com]

I don't understand people who badger fic authors or fan artists to update this or draw more of that - they seem to forget that just like with professional authors and artists, readers aren't owed a single damn thing. It drives me crazy when people get inundated with "omg update already!" When I really love something, I tell that author (or artist) so, along with a "I always look forward to seeing new work from you." That's it. I believe in encouragement instead of harassment.

I tend to ask for constructive criticism from my beta readers along with having them look for spelling/grammar issues or sentence structure weirdness. I figure if I'm going to the trouble of writing and then posting somewhere, I want it to be right before I post it. I get more nervous having my beta readers look at something than I do posting the fic itself in public!

As for leaving it, I don't unless I'm explicitly asked. Otherwise, I subscribe to the thought that if I can't say anything nice about the fic, I say nothing at all, because there's no point in it. It just makes you sound nasty, and someone who's really that bad a writer isn't likely to change his/her style just because he or she gets a rudely-worded comment.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

Jan. 18th, 2013 04:03 pm (UTC)

I don't understand people who badger fic authors or fan artists to update this or draw more of that - they seem to forget that just like with professional authors and artists, readers aren't owed a single damn thing. It drives me crazy when people get inundated with "omg update already!" When I really love something, I tell that author (or artist) so, along with a "I always look forward to seeing new work from you." That's it. I believe in encouragement instead of harassment.

I think a lot of people who do it are teenagers who don't really... think about what they're doing. Or they don't understand that, as you said, readers aren't owed anything. Besides, even professional writers take forever. Fandom has this insane idea that people are supposed to finish novel-length work in two weeks. The only WIP I ever finished took me about a year or two, and honestly? It wasn't very good, because I never bothered to get a beta reader or anything.

I get more nervous having my beta readers look at something than I do posting the fic itself in public!

Oh, absolutely. I tell people who beta my work to be cruel to be kind... and I mean it, but at the same time I know I've given them permission to, well, burn me. :P

I mostly leave really critical stuff if it's at a place where I feel comfortable doing so, or if the person asks for it. Or if I actually really love the fic but just have some minor nitpicks.

[thecowboycliche.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. And that's what more people should do, but they don't. I mean, you don't know a person's intellectual level or language level. English might not be their first language.

lol this is why I stay away from fic, though crit in RP can be just as bad.

[timeofnoreply.livejournal.com]

Well, it's not just people demanding from fic writers or fan artists - George R. R. Martin, the writer of the A Song of Ice and Fire series, has come up against quite a few fans who badger him relentlessly as to when he's going to finish his latest novel. With the last one, it was so bad that Neil Gaiman (http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html) devoted an entire entry to it, with the blunt statement of, "George R. R. Martin is not your bitch." And that's how I feel about those who badger fandom writers/artists. It always irritates me to see, and I suppose it's on my mind especially because a favorite Marvel fan artist of mine has been getting a few anons on Tumblr whining about how she's been posting Hobbit fanart lately - as if she's not allowed to have other interests or other hobbies. But fortunately, with this fandom, even as enormous as it is, that kind of behavior seems to be an exception rather than a rule. At least from the corners I tend to inhabit, anyway.

If I liked a fic but had a minor criticism of something, or wanted to make a correction (a factual one), I tend to frame it as a question, like "oh hey, that was interesting, did you know ____?" or some variation of it.

I usually just try to ignore fics that I really love but which have minor flaws. Some flaws are easier to overlook than others, because I don't particularly expect anyone to be an expert in, say, running a multi-billion-dollar company if they're writing Pepper Potts, or knowing the complete ins and outs of espionage protocol if they're writing Natasha Romanoff. I do wind up facepalming a lot when I read fics set before the 70s - there's this weird tendency of fic writers to conflate anything that happened between WWI and Vietnam all together, and I've hit the back button on more than one fic that had Steve Rogers (Captain America) watching television before WWII, because come on. That's just sloppy. It doesn't take much to run a quick Google search.

But then, I'm kind of compulsive and I might have been up until 2:30 yesterday morning because I needed to know what the weather in Dallas was like on February 16, 1973 for a fic.

[quinns-crossing.livejournal.com]

I dropped out of my writers' group years ago becuase I didn't like the nastiness and backbiting that I was seeing. And they were obsessed with publishing an anthology; not the original intention of the group.

Now, they're better, but I no longer have the time nor the interest.

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

I tend to assume that most people are really in the middle - they're not down with grammar lectures and holier-than-thou pronouncements about how fiction should be written (much less "hdu write this pairing/character, write this other one instead"), but at the same time, they don't find it offensive to point out single factual errors or the occasional typo. At least, that's what I consider the middle, reasonable ground. IMO, if something's bad enough that you'd need to explain a concept like "self-insertion" or "how to punctuate dialogue", it's not worth it, the writer doesn't care enough to learn and will probably be pissed at you. In small fandoms, there might be a kind of "don't criticize, we don't want to keep anyone from feeling like they can write fic" mentality.

My argument is that even if you don't want to be a professional writer, if you take part in any sort of activity, people might mention the execution.

I agree completely. Nobody has to grovel in thanks over it, but dude, if you post publicly and don't say "only praise" ... If I'm talking to people about costuming, I'm not going to leap on their mistakes, but I might say something like, "oh, you know, next time you do this you might want to bind the edge instead of hemming it, it's so much faster." Although my experience in fighting over this at FFA is that there's one group that insists this is insanely rude, and another (in which I sometimes include myself) that insists anyone who says they're not for assume-accepting-crit-as-default thinks this is insanely rude.

I go back and forth on the "write more" thing. On the one hand, yeah, badgering someone who's not even being paid is ridiculous. On the other, it's a compliment that people want your work that much, and there's sort of a new trend of saying "I hate you" to mean "I love you so much". I had/have to completely disagree with Gneil over GRRM, though - if you're paid and you're taking forever and you're interacting with fans, then you takes your chances and/or you gets to work. If you don't like that fans who've waited years for the next book in your series full of cliffies are going "why are you posting to LJ about this rambling shit, go back to your opus so I can give you ~$30 for it," there's something you can do about that. It's your job.