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author_by_night) wrote2024-01-20 10:40 am
author_by_night) wrote2024-01-20 10:40 am
Snowflake: Ask A Longtime Fandomer (Public Post)
I had trouble thinking of five things for the Snowflake prompt, and I've settled on Five Fannish Things I saw online to respond to. I basically just punched "fanfic" and "fandom" into AskReddit.
I tried to balance negative/positive discussion points. Fandom has a lot of ugly. It also has a lot of good.
*Blushes* The Baby-Sitter's Club. It was a small forum, and IIRC we were all preteens who'd outgrown the series, but still wanted to talk about the books and write fic for them. Claudia/Stacey was pretty popular.
But I was always playing games and telling stories based on things I loved. BSC was just the first time I realized there was a name for it.
What was a fandom you missed out on?
This is actually my own question, because I thought of it while scrolling. I really wish I hadn't seen Firefly so late in the game. I loved Firefly when I finally watched it, but by the time I did, most of my LJ flist was into SuperWhoLock or not into any fandoms at all anymore. The only active forum for Firefly I found was very critical of the show, they basically hated everyone except for Mal. I settled for userpics after a while. Part of the problem is that I was boycotting fanfiction.net because censorship, and I had trouble finding fic on LJ, even though I'm sure there was still fanfic being written.
Ao3 was probably a better bet, but I used LJ for most of my fandom needs at that point. Which is another regret; in the case of Firefly, I think Ao3 was still new, so there might not have been much there anyway. But I kind of just left fanfiction.net and stuck with fic archives on fan websites and LJ, so once those stopped being a thing, that was that. :/
Going back to Firefly, I will say I now like OFMD better, even if it has also been unceremoniously canceled. Also, I think I feel the same way about season 2 that I feel about Serenity.
Really interested in hearing your thoughts!
I tried to balance negative/positive discussion points. Fandom has a lot of ugly. It also has a lot of good.
What book looks like a fanfic?
I think they mean "reads as a fanfic", and I would say Red, White and Royal Blue. There are even rumors that it's based ON a fanfic. This is a compliment, by the way. I love that book. The characters are great, the romance is great, and I wish I lived in an America where Ellen Claremont was President.
I think they mean "reads as a fanfic", and I would say Red, White and Royal Blue. There are even rumors that it's based ON a fanfic. This is a compliment, by the way. I love that book. The characters are great, the romance is great, and I wish I lived in an America where Ellen Claremont was President.
What's the worst fandom experience that you've had personally?
I found out a bunch of fandom "friends" hated me once While a lot of not nice things were said by people, one of the things that stung the most was a friend saying that he dreaded talking to me on MSN. I never made him message me. He could have taken me off his contacts, could have said he was busy, could have done... anything but have long conversations with me that he apparently hated.
I found out a bunch of fandom "friends" hated me once While a lot of not nice things were said by people, one of the things that stung the most was a friend saying that he dreaded talking to me on MSN. I never made him message me. He could have taken me off his contacts, could have said he was busy, could have done... anything but have long conversations with me that he apparently hated.
What fandom do you regret being a part of?
I regret being in the Twilight hatedom. I still have my criticisms of the books, but I think the hatedom took it way too far at times, and while I pulled away when it did, I still think I was a little too biting at times. I remember making a snarky comment about Twilight fans to a librarian, and she looked hurt. I felt pretty bad. I also had a friend who was a little offended by my remarks.
Something else that bugs, and I realize this is an extreme example, is that a woman defended the books on YouTube and got meme'd bad online for it. Her tantrums were meme'd, and she was fat shamed. Videos were made about her. This was mostly YouTube, being what it was at the time, but she got made fun of outside of YouTube too.
Again, I know most Twilight critics weren't fat shaming YouTubers, I'm just saying this was the worst of it that I saw.
I regret being in the Twilight hatedom. I still have my criticisms of the books, but I think the hatedom took it way too far at times, and while I pulled away when it did, I still think I was a little too biting at times. I remember making a snarky comment about Twilight fans to a librarian, and she looked hurt. I felt pretty bad. I also had a friend who was a little offended by my remarks.
Something else that bugs, and I realize this is an extreme example, is that a woman defended the books on YouTube and got meme'd bad online for it. Her tantrums were meme'd, and she was fat shamed. Videos were made about her. This was mostly YouTube, being what it was at the time, but she got made fun of outside of YouTube too.
Again, I know most Twilight critics weren't fat shaming YouTubers, I'm just saying this was the worst of it that I saw.
What was one of your earliest fandoms you were a part of?
*Blushes* The Baby-Sitter's Club. It was a small forum, and IIRC we were all preteens who'd outgrown the series, but still wanted to talk about the books and write fic for them. Claudia/Stacey was pretty popular.
But I was always playing games and telling stories based on things I loved. BSC was just the first time I realized there was a name for it.
What was a fandom you missed out on?
This is actually my own question, because I thought of it while scrolling. I really wish I hadn't seen Firefly so late in the game. I loved Firefly when I finally watched it, but by the time I did, most of my LJ flist was into SuperWhoLock or not into any fandoms at all anymore. The only active forum for Firefly I found was very critical of the show, they basically hated everyone except for Mal. I settled for userpics after a while. Part of the problem is that I was boycotting fanfiction.net because censorship, and I had trouble finding fic on LJ, even though I'm sure there was still fanfic being written.
Ao3 was probably a better bet, but I used LJ for most of my fandom needs at that point. Which is another regret; in the case of Firefly, I think Ao3 was still new, so there might not have been much there anyway. But I kind of just left fanfiction.net and stuck with fic archives on fan websites and LJ, so once those stopped being a thing, that was that. :/
Going back to Firefly, I will say I now like OFMD better, even if it has also been unceremoniously canceled. Also, I think I feel the same way about season 2 that I feel about Serenity.
Really interested in hearing your thoughts!
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That's really awful! There's a lot of things I prefer about earlier versions of internet fandom, but one thing I don't miss is the cruelty and drama. I think a lot of it was down to people being a lot younger, and people still not really sure how to be a community/friends in online spaces, and the combination of those two things led to a lot of confusion and nastiness. But really, that's an explanation rather than an excuse, and I'm sorry you experienced that.
I agree with you about Twilight, and I think in some ways the level of hate it attracted (and the way some people's entire online life seemed to be hate-reading Twilight and posting about what was wrong with it in exhaustive detail) was the precursor to a lot of the toxicity we see in fandom today, especially the idea that 'problematic' fictional content causes real-world harm, and that fans of said 'problematic' content are bad people who themselves contribute to this real-world harm. At this point, I understand disliking a work of fiction, a character, a ship, a trope or whatever — and not wanting to read/watch such things, or writing a negative review of works in which they appear is entirely justifiable, but I think attacking other fans who do enjoy those things is completely unacceptable. Or devoting the bulk of one's fannish output to complaining about the existence of such things (or complaining that the 'harmful' ships, 'problematic' tropes etc are more popular than the tropes and ships you like), which I also see a lot — why not devote energy instead to engaging with things you enjoy and reccing them to other people?
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Oh, for sure! I think that was exactly the problem here, for everyone. There were a few things I left out precisely because while at the time they upset me, now I can see where the whole thing was a very nuanced situation. Honestly, even the guy - I can see how maybe he felt that because we shared fandom mutuals, he had to respond to my MSN messages, but at the same time didn't really want to talk to me... so he said something mean in what was only ever meant to be a private conversation instead.
So yeah, while it was a very upsetting experience, I do see how there was nuance, even with him.
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1) I love love love Gregory Maguire and his work is fanfiction, isn't it? But soooooooooo good! "Mirror Mirror" is in my top five fave books of all time.
2) I covered my worsts the other day in a post...
3) "hatedom" lol. I've not heard that. I can't think of any fandom I regret being part of. BtVS was impossible to break into, simply cliquey beyond words. So I slid sideways into Vampire Diaries / Originals and was better for it.
4) I came in to "fandom" as we know it with LJ and Harry Potter. But yes, when one looks back, we all derivatively entertained ourselves. For me it was endless obsession and sketching of satyrs based on myth and the Narnia Chronicles.
5) I wish't I had seen True Detective S1 while it was dropping and not had to wait to get the dvds as we had no other way to watch it then.
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I never tried getting into the Buffy fandom. Actually another one I think I would have loved, though cliqueyness makes it awkward. To be fair, the Harry Potter fandom was very cliquey as well.
For me it was endless obsession and sketching of satyrs based on myth and the Narnia Chronicles.
Nice!
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I guess, being in HP, I didn't see the cliqueyness but rather more open preference. Same dif?
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I guess, being in HP, I didn't see the cliqueyness but rather more open preference. Same dif?
Oh, that might be a better way of describing it. I think some people could be a little standoffish, but most of us just liked what we liked. And a lot of us had our ships AND hated ship wars.
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But... I did read a lot of books last year that COMPLETELY read as fanfic reimagined. One, I know for a fact was--The Love Hypothesis--which is so Rey/Kylo A/U that the main characters name is Adam. :D Everything for You is Roy Kent/Jamie Tartt in America, and yes, You're a Mean One, Matthew Prince is a Hallmark Schitt's Creek fusion and I won't be convinced otherwise. ;)
2. OMG, that is awful! I am so sorry that happened to you! ♥
3. Hatedom haha. I've never heard that term before. But yes, I've regretted being in any hatedom. What a waste of time.
4. Harry Potter almost exclusively on LJ for a long time. *sob*
5. Firefly as well. I mean, mostly all fandoms? I tend to come to shows/movies/books late and take FOREVER to engage after falling, so I always feel a bit out of the loop. But, when I think of what I could have done with the Firefly fandom back in the day. *sigh* But I'd really like to hear more about your Season 2 of OFMD=Serenity thoughts. ♥
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But... I did read a lot of books last year that COMPLETELY read as fanfic reimagined. One, I know for a fact was--The Love Hypothesis--which is so Rey/Kylo A/U that the main characters name is Adam. :D Everything for You is Roy Kent/Jamie Tartt in America, and yes, You're a Mean One, Matthew Prince is a Hallmark Schitt's Creek fusion and I won't be convinced otherwise. ;)
Yeah, the SC fandom has SO many fics like that, and you know David loves Hallmark movies. (I don't think it's officially canon, but he probably does.)
I also read a book that felt so much like a Harry Potter fanfic, it took me out of it. I need to try reading it again because a lot of people love it, and it was very well written, I was just... confused. That being said, the author has claimed to have been influenced by Terry Pratchett, who I believe has a similar cadence. I also think it felt Harry Potterish because it's very much our world, yet not our world, though unlike HP it never pretends to be our world. I'll have to try it again. (I forget the name, but the MC's name was Linus. I may just read it as a Harry Potter AU so I can get over the confusion, heh. What I read of the book itself was quite good, it was totally a me thing.)
But I'd really like to hear more about your Season 2 of OFMD=Serenity thoughts. ♥
Okay, so both S2 of OFMD and Serenity are a LOT darker than the first season/original show, even though both were pretty dark in their own right - I just think OFMD S1 and Firefly leaned more into the humor aspects, whereas S2/Serenity went straight for the jugular with grimdarkness. Mal and Ed are in a very dark place. Inara and Stede are AWOL (from the ship's perspectives). And both end with a character dying, though Wash and Izzy have zero in common.
(And I see a lot of Mal in Ed and Stede in Inara. Both Mal and Ed are good people who don't believe thmeselves to be, both lost wars in a sense, and Inara and Stede are both wealthy people on a pirate ship for unclear reasons.)
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I've been hated on a few times by people... I moved on rather quickly.
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And ha, yeah, I was also late to the Firefly fandom, so I never really squeed about it with anyone, just quietly enjoyed it. I've found a handful of good fics on Ao3 since, but it never felt like there was an abundance to sift through.
Thanks for posting these! It's interesting to think about :)
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Oh, I'm sure that was part of it for me, too.
Seeing how cruel other people were about it was part of why I backed off.
Yeah, same. For maybe a year or two, it was fun, but then it started to get really mean.
I played with Barbies into my teens. Shh. ;) Though I will say, they were always more props for story-telling. So it was less "lalala make Barbie's hair prettyful" and more the way I'd eventually play The Sims. For instance, one of my barbies was a teen mom.
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I'm sorry about those fandom "friends" treated you in that manner! That was so rude of that person to say! Like you said could have stopped communicating with you in so many different less hurtful ways. I'm so sorry you had to deal with that!
I regret being in the Twilight hatedom. Same! I didn't like the books/movies at the time and still don't, but now when a friend brings up their love of Twilight or that they're re-reading or re-watching the movies I just keep my mouth shut and let them go on about their love of it. Back then too, I had a friend go off on me on why I didn't like them. At first I kept it polite just saying it wasn't my cup of tea but cool she liked it. Then she got so defensive about it and that "I didn't read the book so I never gave it a chance." So when I responded about all the different parts that needed to be edited better and the poor grammar and proved that I had read it, she backed down because "she didn't realize I had read it." That's so HORRIBLE about that poor Youtuber! Nobody deserves that! Now when someone tells me about a fandom I'm not part of or not really interested in, I just applaud them for their love of something they enjoy.
I got into Firefly late too!
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Twilight is such a complex thing. I think there are very valid critiques of the books to be made, especially with younger readers reading them uncritically. That said I think reading is great and I've read my fair share of trash and had fun with it, including Twilight, so I don't want to shame people for reading things. The best approach to Twilight that I saw was in a high school where I worked for a few months. A teacher had the Twilight fans make a book club and that way they could be introduced to other books. Some people went form being non readers to reading any vampire novel they could get their hands on including things like Dracula.
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That said I think reading is great and I've read my fair share of trash and had fun with it, including Twilight, so I don't want to shame people for reading things.
And to be fair, I think a lot of people read Twilight for what they were. Which is the other thing. One of my friends was like you, read them knowing they weren't the best literature ever, and she even said "you don't like the books because they're everything you don't like. Bella is mostly focused on finding a boyfriend, that's kind of the point." Looking back, she was right on the money. I think for my part, I was kind of expecting something more like Buffy. I hadn't actually seen Buffy yet, but the irony is that I always assumed Buffy was a lot like Twilight. In any case, Buffy had what I thought I'd signed up for when reading Twilight - sure, some vampire romance, but also fighting the good fight, strong friendships, etc. Twilight is a high school romance with vampires, and that's honestly fine.
The best approach to Twilight that I saw was in a high school where I worked for a few months. A teacher had the Twilight fans make a book club and that way they could be introduced to other books. Some people went form being non readers to reading any vampire novel they could get their hands on including things like Dracula.
Oh, I love that! That's really cool.
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I do think there are things in Twilight that warrant discussion with younger readers. Like it's not actually romantic that Edward sneaks in her room to watch her sleep, it's creepy. Also, there's a lot of shaming of sexual desire that's absolutely what I call sneaky Mormonism in the books because none of the characters are portrayed as being Mormon but they hold strong values that are. My students pointed out that when the high school kids have a party they're having juice and cookies in someone's house and just hanging out and they were like "that's not like when we have a party." It was a great opening to talk about why the author is choosing to portray teenagers in that way because they're right, that's not how all high school parties go.
That said I think everyone has likely read some questionable things. I grew up in an era where V.C. Andrews was the popular author to read in junior high. Those books were a world of inappropriate for me but I came through okay.
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Yeah, you're right. And while I don't remember our conversations that well, I remember him saying at one point "I wondered what you'd say about that" or something along those lines, which felt like a very Friend Thing to say. Now it seems a little derisive, which, ouch.
if someone was talking to me like we were friends there was no way I could have known that they actually didn't want to spend the time with me.
Exactly.
. Also, there's a lot of shaming of sexual desire that's absolutely what I call sneaky Mormonism in the books because none of the characters are portrayed as being Mormon but they hold strong values that are.
Yes. LOTS of sneaky Mormonism. Though it's interesting because I would think that if you were a Mormon, being in love with someone who was an undead soul would be sinful, somehow? I don't subscribe to that personally, I'm just saying. But yeah, apparently even Bella's wedding is very much a Mormon wedding. And in a Mormon context, the indigenous storyline is even more problematic.
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Oh the indigenous stuff is also problematic. It's been a long time since I've read the books and I think I'd read them with far different eyes if I tried now.
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I do hope the person who was cruel to you learned some more empathy and would behave differently in a similar situation today. More than that I hope you know that wasn't your fault. You were mislead and because you weren't a person with that kind of cruelty in them you didn't see the double cross coming.
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I don't think I've ever regretted being a part of a fandom . . .
One bad experience was participating in an LDWS competition, I don't even remember which one, but NC-17 fics were not allowed. Someone wrote a fic including explicit bestiality and rated it "G". o.O
I don't care what people read or write, to each their own, but this was a clear violation of the rules and pointed it out, which created way more drama than I had ever imagined. I mean the person could have changed the rating to R and been fine but no way was that drabble G-rated.
I was very late to the party with Firefly, too, and wish I had been part of that fandom in its heyday. That would have been fun.
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One bad experience was participating in an LDWS competition, I don't even remember which one, but NC-17 fics were not allowed. Someone wrote a fic including explicit bestiality and rated it "G". o.O
I think I remember that! Didn't it cause a whole debate about tagging and what to expect from a fanfic community? I feel like I was only vaguely aware of said drama, it may have been at a time when I was otherwise occupied.
I mean the person could have changed the rating to R and been fine but no way was that drabble G-rated.
Yeah, I agree. It almost sounds trollish. Not sure whether or not that was the intention? I also think people in fandom sometimes forget not everyone enjoys explicit fic, and not everyone who doesn't is a prude. I'm all for calling out censorship and problematic attitudes, people should be allowed to write what they write, but I don't think it's too much to ask someone to warn.
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Wow, that really sucks and I'm sorry that happened to you. :(
Finding out that those you considered friends actually don't really like you really does sting, even more so when you find out that they've been secretly ranting about you to others behind your back.
Yeah, I do think the mocking of Twilight did go too far. It was inescapable at the time, everywhere you went people either were hardcore fanatics of it or were openly hating and mocking it, and it kind of got out of control. It was a prime example of the Internet loving to hate on something and missing the point the original criticisms to begin with, because there are valid critiques of those books but it got lost in the middle of the hate and mocking (and the sexism) that occurred during that time.
I'm sad that you didn't get to experience the Firefly fandom at the time, either. I remember being so excited and counting down the days to Serenity alongside other fans on LJ.
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Yeah, exactly! And thank you for pointing out the sexism, because there was that as well.
It also showed how snark culture of the time seemed to lack an understanding of something just not being for you. If you said "don't like, don't read" you were called butthurt. Isn't that just common sense?
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